Pignut Hickory versus Red Hickory  

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 8:30 am
From: "Edward Frank"
The Pignut versus Red Hickory is a question we need to get figured out. I am not sure how to distinguish between the two of them. I a sure others are in the same boat. If the one George found is a pignut, the first version of the tables lists the 140 x 7.7, from Hurricane Creek Cohutta Wilderness Area GA 1/27/2001 J Riddle, D Riddle. The Georges would be taller than any on the list. I don't know about the "pignuts" in South Carolina, but here is some potential that other pignuts elsewhere on the list may be red hickory. I am not sure what to say about it at this time.
People with tree information need to look over jess's list to fix any omissions on it. A quick look at Georges data, led to questions about four of the species listed. it is a monumental task to generate the list without help by other people. I have tried to look at the data I submitted to the list, but am still finding stuff. When Jess sends a revised list I will go over it again with a fine toothed comb and try to weed out any omission I may have made..
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.
It is the source of all true art and all science." - Albert Einstein
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Blozan
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:00 AM
Subject: [ENTS] Re: Pa. Audubon Wildlife Sanctuary RI
There are taller “pignuts” in SC. They may actually be red hickory, as the one in Swannanoa may be as well.
Will F. Blozan
President, Eastern Native Tree Society
President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 11:16 am
From: "Will Blozan"
I agree, the hickories need to be worked out. Jess seems to have a good
handle on it.
Will F. Blozan
President, Eastern Native Tree Society
President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc.

TOPIC: Red Hickory s. Pignut Hickory
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 7:54 am
From: "Edward Frank"
ENTS, Will,
Red Hickory (Carya ovalis) vs Pignut Hickory (Carya glabra)
Will, You said Jess has a good grasp on the red hickory vs. pignut hickory question. I ma glad someone does, because I find myself a mite perplexed.
In my Audubon Field Guide to Trees under Pignut (there is no separate entry for Red Hickory):
Red Hickory (var. odorata (Marsh.) Little), a variety with nearly the same range, has the fruit husks spitting to the base, usually 7 leaflets, and often shaggy bark.
In my Peterson's Filed Guide to Eastern Trees under Pignut (there is no separate entry for Red Hickory):
[Similar species... Shagbark Hickory, Sand Hickory, Black Hickory, Mockernut Hickory] Intergrades occur between these several species. Sweet Pignut Hickory (C. ovalis), with fully splitting nut husks, is no longer separated.
So I am wondering if Red Hickory is a separate species, subspecies, variety, or what. Peterson's indicates it is no longer considered as a separate species, but it is listed elsewhere as one. The most definitive characteristic seems to be how the nut splits.
Here are some hickory Links:
Red Hickory-Carya (Hicoria) ovalis
The red hickory tree is very similar to the pignut hickory. It thrives in the same areas as the pignut, and is often hard to distinguished from the pignut hickory. Many people consider red hickory to be a northern ecotype of the pignut hickory. At maturity, the red hickory attains a height of 50-80 feet with a trunk diameter of from 2-3 feet. The crown is narrowly oblong with rather short, spreading branches. Lower branches are drooping. The trunk extends straight into the crown and is often forked.
Buds are small and only 1/4-1/2 inch (6-13 mm) long. Branchlets and leaflets are scarcely pubescent. The bark is dark gray, fissured, and closely held on young trees. Mature bark separates into narrow, shaggy plates on older trunks, but even these plates are more tightly held than shagbark and shellbark hickories. This character give rise to the name of false-shagbark hickory.
The leaves are 8-12 inches (20-30 1/2 cm) long. They are composed of five to seven leaflets which are oblong or rounded to lance-shaped, 3-5 inches (7 1/2-13 cm) long, and 1-2 inches (2 1/2-5 cm) wide. Leaflets sharply taper at the apex and are finely serrate, or toothed, along the margin.
Flowers are monoecious. Male flowers are catkins and showy, while the female flowers are green and inconspicuous. Flowering occurs in May. The fruit is subglobose, from 4/5-1 inch (20-25 mm) long, and four-channeled from the apex to the base. Fruits are light brown and scaly when ripe. The husk is thin and is difficult to split. The nut is brownish in color with a small, sweet kernel.
This tree is found on lower slopes of southeastern Ohio rather than the ridges where the pignut hickory is found. Red hickory is particularly common on southern and western exposures. The wood is heavy, strong, and hard. It is reddish-brown in color which gives this plant its local name of red hickory. It is said to be somewhat inferior to the other hickories but is used for the same purposes.
Bark: A gray-brown developing rounded ridges forming an irregular diamond-shaped pattern, and on older trees, tends to appear shaggy.
Notes: Red hickory is found occasionally throughout the hardwood forests of the southern piedmont. It is similar in appearance to both pig nut and shag bark hickory, such that "false shag bark hickory" is often used as a common name. The bark is the one visible clue in identification. In young trees, the bark is tight and similar to Pig Nut, but tends to shag with age, giving a shag bark/pig nut appearance (see bark illustration above). Like the other hickory's, the tree makes a good specimen tree where it has room to grow. The commercial uses of this species is the same as the other hickory's and in the timber business, little differentiation is made between them, and like the other hickory's, its use as a source of hard mast for wildlife is limited.
Pignut Hickory: Early settlers named the species "pignut" because their hogs loved to eat the nuts. A related species, red hickory (Carya ovalis) differs from pignut hickory by slight differences in the fruit and bark. Many hickories hybridize with each other, making exact identification difficult even for experts.
http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=19  Pignut Hickory
http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Pennsylvania&statefips=42&symbol=CAOV3  Red Hickory Distributions in PA
The bark of the Red Hickory is composed of sharp, furrowed bark with deep crevices in between the scales. On younger trees, the bark becomes very tight but can also for sections the scales occasionally curl up vertically away from the trunk, much like the Shagbark Hickory (Carya ovata). Middle aged trees have tight, shallow furrowed bark that is composed of tough interlocking scales. The coloring can range from grayish to dark brown with reddish highlights in between scales.
http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/caov3.htm  Carya ovalis images
http://www.fw.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm?ID=826  Carya ovalis fact sheet
Comments about a forest species association from northern VA. Quercus rubra - Carya ovalis / Collinsonia canadensis - Impatiens pallida Forest
These are the best links I found on the species. I could not fins any good photos of older trees showing the bark characteristics.
Ed Frank

TOPIC: tree site & red vs pignut hickory
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 8:21 am
From: "Ryan McEwan"
Hi all:
Here is a tree ID website that I created while I was a PhD student, and has
since been picked up by other folks. You might want to add this to the
list of other tree ID sites you use... Some pretty good photos, others
still need work...
On the red vs. pignut question- I have been in the woods with ultra-keen
dendrologists before and have been convincingly shown a Carya ovalis. 7
leaflets, basically glabrous...with just a few hairs...relatively tight bark
(clearly not Carya laciniosa)... But, I think it grades into Carya glabra
along a spectrum. I bet the molecular data would find them inseperable, and
I do not attempt to distinguish that species. Just like "black maple" the
molecular data cannot distinguish between it and "sugar maple." And,
like basswood. I met a guy once who had been a naturalist at a state park
in Kentucky for many years and he told me that when he first took the
job they distinguished 4 species of basswood!! Most texts now
only recognized Tilia americana...even the heterophylla distinction seems to
be falling off the map.
happy holidays
Ryan McEwan
The University of Dayton

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 9:11 am
From: dbhguru@comcast.net
I'm glad to hear about the trend toward lumping instead of splitting. If molecular analysis won't separate a couple of dubious species, and we recognize a continuum of characteristics, I'd rather go with what the molecules communicate. Maybe I'm just being lazy.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 9:25 am
From: Elisa Campbell
If the trees don't care - that is, the interbreed freely and produce
viable offspring - why should we?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 12:23 pm
From: dbhguru@comcast.net
From a tree's standpoint, it doesn't matter. From a human perspective, affixing names to as many recognizably distinct life forms as we can find seems to be an aspect of our nature. Does a name connote understanding? No, not really, but naming does serve a useful function in the learning process. When is it overdone? We could talk about that for a long time.

TOPIC: tree site & red vs pignut hickory
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2008 5:31 pm
From: "Darian Copiz"
Here's to one species of hawthorn!
Ok, exaggerated, but a nice thought.
Here's to lumpers and lumping!