TOPIC: Diversity Index
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 7:16 pm
From: "Edward Frank"
Other ways you can contribute:
I know that many of you are may not be as obsessed with volume
measurements as Bobby L. and some of the other members are at the moment.
James Parton has posted a series of posts on Celtic Myths relating
to trees. Other efforts along those lines, poetry, and discussion of
a lighter nature are welcome on the list and I encourage people to
post things of interest to them. Talk about the aesthetics of the
forest, the emotional, or spiritual nature of your forest walks. If
there is an old tree in your home town, research the history
associated with the tree. Interview people who have grown up with
the tree. Maybe it held a child's swing. There are human attachments
to certain trees that would be interesting oral histories to
document. Are there old postcards or photos that showed a particular
tree 50 years ago, or a hundred years ago -how has it changed over
time? Write about things that interest you about trees or forests.
One of the important things that we as members of ENTS can do is to
provided detailed descriptions of the sites we visit. This can
include listings of the species we find, including trees, shrubs,
ferns, moss, animals, birds whatever you find to the best of your
ability to identify them. Descriptions of the lay of the land.
Streams, structure of the forest, age of the tree, what species are
in the understory. If we are to document these sites well, we should
not limit ourselves to the heights of the tallest trees only. Most
of the site descriptions can also be completed without the
electronic instrumentation, so this is another avenue for people to
get started and make a worthwhile contribution to ENTS even of they
are not doing detailed height and volume measurements.
Another option for people who want to measure something is the
Rucker Girth Index. This would be the numeric average of the fattest
individual of each of the ten fattest species in the site. The RGI
is explained in more detail in the measurement section of the
website. The Rucker Girth Index is not limited to ten species, but
can be expanded to as manby different species as can be measured. it
is certainly a worthwhile goal to pursue and all it requires is a
$10 tape from a hardware store..
Colby Rucker produced a series of profiles listing the heights of
every species found on several sites in Maryland and nearby states.
The common Rucker Index referred to in many posts is essentially
just a foreshortened version of this expanded species profile for a
These are just some thoughts to get people started on projects and
to becoming more involved with ENTS.
(I am trying to remember to delete old posts from my replies and be
conscious of changes of topics)
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 21 2007 9:30 pm
From: James Parton
I intend to do more posts on Celtic Myths & would really be
in hearing some of the ones Bob Leverett surely knows. I would love
see more variety on ENTS. I have nothing against forestry
& tree measuring ( I hope to get more into that myself ) but
love to see ENTS members become more " intimate " with
trees. Yes, I
love the field reports too. Whether very basic or quite technical.
enables all of us to see somewhere we may have never been. Will has
had some outstanding ones. His Cataloochee ones are always greatly
anticipated by me. I currently am awaiting a post of importance from
him concerning our Kellogg excursion. Your Cook Forest ones I like
too. Hopefully I will get to visit the Black River or Congaree in
upcoming year & do a post on those. I have always enjoyed trees
forests. Through ENTS I can share it & with a little luck
little knowledge about a specific forest/tree as well.
TOPIC: Diversity Index
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 5:15 am
With respect to the forestry stuff, it is time for a couple of us in
ENTS to switch directions... With respect to our forum, you've
caught the true spirit of ENTS. ENTS is about tree and woodland
celebratory activities. We fill niches, do basic tree research, and
document exemplary forested sites and we are supposed to sing the
praises of trees in folklore, legend, and myth. Let it be so.
The American sycamore is the Cherokee tree of legend. Presumably
fire was given to the Cherokees from a flame in the hollow bole of a
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 8:36 am
From: James Parton
Well said. It's not that I am complaining about ENTS. I really enjoy
being a member & enjoy participating in the discussion forum. It
just that diversity would add so much. It would send ENTS from great
to AWESOME! ( I hope Ed don't get me for shouting! LoL ). I have so
much I would like to do with ENTS. Folklore/Legends, Tree Measuring,
Forest Conservation, etc. To contribute any way I can. People like
yourself, Ed, Jess Riddle, Larry Tucei & of course Will Blozan
done so much for ENTS. Will's Tsuga Search Project and Vanishing
Hemlock Documentary ( I still gotta donate to his cause on that. The
Holidays have bout broke me! ) and Larry's Live Oak Project are both
outstanding ENTS projects. How can I hope to run in such elite
company? I plan to join the Asheville chapter of TACF also & can
serve as a rep or intermediary between them & ENTS. Anyway, I
TOPIC: ENTS interests
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 3:57 pm
With everyone tired of reading about the spate of ENTS highbrow
measuring projects, the esoteric interests of James and Larry are
providing a real shot in the arm to our collective creativity. Of
course, we can always count on Ed to be a fountain of ideas, but it
hasn't always been clear to me who is interested in what. One
subject that I would like to see us pursue is the bonding of an Ent
to a particular site. For instance, my first visit to Cook Forest
State Park let a forest genie out of the woods elixir bottle for me.
I've been thinking about recapturing the feelings I had on my first
visit and sharing them with my fellow and lady Ents. I'd love to be
inside Russ Richardson's head as he lovelingly cruises the
properties that he manages. I think we all recognize that forests
are far more to Russ than an accumulation of board feet. How does
Russ balance the necessary economic perspective with the spiritual
one that I know he has. I'd like to be in Larry's head as he naviga
tes a southern swamp full of alligators and cottonmouths. There's a
magic to the southern Spanish moss-draped swamps. Who better to
share experiences with us than Larry. I could cast my imagining to
include Beth, Lin, and other lady Ents. How do they see their
To be sure the numeric view of forests is quintessentially ENTS, but
so should be our purely qualitative experiences. They are supposed
to be. I firmly believe that sacred spaces can only be understood
and fully enjoyed through meditations, and perhaps legends and
myths. Some of us have to consciously suspend our academic or
professional views of forests or all we see is a collection of
surface features and their physical interactions - rather like
knowing our grandmothers only as collections of body parts working
together in purely physical ways.
I have no intention of abandoning or even reducing my personal
effort along scientific lines. The book on dendromorphometry will
bring together the collective numerical expertise of ENTS as a
seminal work. The book will incorporate algebra, plane and solid
geometry, analytic geometry, and differential and integral calculus.
It will be truly a heavyweight accomplishment for us, but we need to
think about an equally offsetting effort along aesthetic and
spiritual lines. Only by achieving such a balance will ENTS realize
its true potential.
I fondly recall woodland experiences with the late Dr. Michael
Perlman that kindled in me feelings of the mystical. Both Mike and I
were college teachers and full of exhuberance when in the woods.
Mike was a woodland elf. Both of us let it all out when alone.
However, I was more reserved than Mike when in the company of
others. He was entirely uninhibited, the most unabashed tree hugger
ever knew. Mike's wonderful, complex book "The Power of Trees -
A Reforesting of the Soul" is an important work exploring the
mystical connection between humans and trees.
I will soon dive into my former Indian wife's extensive library.
There are more than 400 volumes. It is a daunting task, but one with
the promise of great rewards. I have a feeling that ENTS will soar
to new heights in the coming year. Now, to do my part, all I need to
do is get ride of these infernal shingles.
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 8:42 pm
From: James Parton
Some of us ENTS I feel have bonded to certain places. You & Ed
Forest. Larry to the southern swamps & Will to Cataloochee.
feel closest to the Graveyard Fields/Shining Rock Wilderness area of
Pisgah National Forest & like Master Will, Cataloochee ( GSMNP
of us have our " enchanted " place. I am sure of that.
I look forward to your delving into Jani's books. It would be a
fitting tribute to her, one that she probably would have approved
I would have loved to have been around at the time she was still
I bet corresponding with her would have been a treat. I am sure the
books have much to offer. More Celtic stuff will be seen from me.
Together we can " sprout " a new limb on the ENTS tree!
Hey, I have no problem with measuring projects. They in their own
right tell much about a forest. In that I hope to get more involved
while You, Will, Larry, Jess, BVP & Ed, among other ENTS,
lead the way.
Does ENTS ever work any more with Robert Messick? I think he was a
member of the SAFC at one time. Will has had some dealings with him
before. It was reading about some of his finds that got my interest
peaked in studying old growth about 4 years ago, before I started
lurking " in on ENTS.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 10:11 pm
I am proud to proclaim Rob Messick as one of my original disciples,
although he can claim me as one of his now. In 1992, I helped train
Rob to recognize old growth forest characteristics. If I recall, the
area we chose was the Cosby area. Outside a group of avant garde
scientists (guess who was one), in those days there were only a
handful of us who could recognize old growth characteristics with
relative confidence. In the South, Bob Zahner was one. Will was
another. In the Northeast I was a third. The field was pretty darn
thin. In terms of the discovery of acreage, Rob went on to smoke me.
Rob was part of the original ENTS list, but his precarious financial
situation caused him to periodically disappear of the radar screen.
I have often thought about writing a book about the eastern old
growth forest discovery movement of the late 1980s and 1990s. Now
that I am retired and settled with the second great love of my life,
I just may do that. The book would include a about a dozen
scientists as well as another dozen non-scientist activists. We've
all come a long way. The story is well worth telling, but I would
have to be careful in telling it not to allow myself to cross over
into the negative zone. During that period, we were usually battling
government resource managers who refused to acknowledge that there
might be a scape of knowledge about forests that they didn't know.
As it turned out there was quite a bit they didn't know and that
story would be at least implicit in the story of the individuals.
It is hard to find balance in telling the full story of the
discoveries of eastern old growth without being pretty judgemental.
I remember when a regional manager of the Forest Service allowed as
to how there might be 150 acres of old growth in Linville Gorge. The
Green Mountain NF didn't think it had any old growth. Yet it hadn't
always been that way in the Forest Service. Rob Messick knows that
story best of all of us and I hope will one day tell it. Foresters
like William Ashe were some of the best environmentalist we have
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 10:32 pm
From: James Parton
Hopefully Rob will find us again one day. He obviously has been and
still would be a great addition to ENTS.
Goodnight: James Parton.
TOPIC: ENTS interests
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 22 2007 10:37 pm
From: James Parton
Messick is still active in Old Growth activities.
TOPIC: ENTS interests
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 23 2007 8:17 am
From: "Ray Weber"
I wholeheartedly agree with Bob on this.
I do think however, that standing up for and protecting public lands
is a postive, not negative measure. Unfortunately industry hooplah,
and dubious science and studies, are being put forth by A FEW
This is affecting policy on our public lands.
We need ALL the environmental groups to come forth NOW, and stop
falling for all the green certification and "biodiversity"
being presented. Elisa's group has been VERY good about looking at
this hard. Im speaking however, of all the rest. We are looking for
long term assurance that our park and others are safe, and I don't
see that happening with it under green certification.
I think any change to save them is VERY positive. ENTS has provided
real and accurate science and that has been a major contribution.
We have spoken with many foresters, including some with DCR, that
do not believe in false scenarios, especially those that have been
forth, to convince the public to harvest lands. This is being
by very few. In the process, this is being discovered, and DCR and
are looking bad. You can be assured, leadership has been shown that
this is the case, and is listening, right to the top of the state
is one big change from the previous administrations. They have
that they see whats happening, and will at least listen. A
However, the cheerleaders look very convincing as you can see....
Since headway has been made, I consider this ALL very positive.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL!!!!
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 23 2007 2:27 pm
From: Elisa Campbell
I truly hope you will write that book. It would be very informative
all of us who already value Old Growth, and a great awakening for