| confirmed
ages for eastern species |
Neil |
| Dec
13, 2003 07:42 PST |
Bob,
Yes, OLDLIST list is limited. Peter Brown maintains the list on
his own time. Submissions are voluntary.
It is biased towards the American SW and other regions where
trees can live a millennium or longer and species that can live
that long. A 300 year old tree is not impressive to a
dendrochronologist in the American SW or someone studying
conifers in Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Tasmania....
As ENTS knows, eastern species are worthy trees, too! More
importantly, besides the basic natural history info max ages can
provide, maximum ages from the literature are being used in
models used to forecast the impact of future climate change on
ecosystems. Craig Loehle published a nice compilation of ages
from the literature a few years back. Going over that list, it
is clear, as Charlie has discussed, there are limitations about
what we know about maximum tree ages. This subject may be in its
infancy compared to the tree height work of ENTS. For example,
the Silvics of NA says that cucumber magnolia "seldom
reaches more than 150 years." This may be true, but it
gives no insight to its maximum age. Further, Hough and Forbes
study of the PA high plateaus shows at least 23 cucumbers trees
more than 160 years old, 7 of which are more than 200 years. One
of those trees was over 300 years old.
As Charlie pointed out, the lack of good information works in
the other direction [i.e. 900 year old hemlock]. This type of
information is having some real world consequences. I met the MD
Dept. of Natural Resources person whose job is to identify and
delineate OG on public lands. They have many attributes to help
guide him in identifying OG. One attribute is 1/2 maximum age
for the species. On their list, they have 400 years as 1/2 max
age for hemlock. So, several stand that are likely OG are not
being designated because he can not find a 400 yr old hemlock
[before someone gets too upset, they have a panel and use reason
in identifying old-growth. They even have a term for it:
oldest-growth, as in oldest possible growth for the area]. As
Charlie discussed here earlier, 600 years is a rare max age for
hemlock. Ed Cook has never broken 600 although he has cored >
1000 hemlocks from Nova Scotia to Alabama. This would suggest
that typical max age might be in the 400-550 year range. So, 1/2
maximum age for hemlock might be best put at 250-275 years, but
this is just a suggestion I have. It would take more study to
know typical max age better.
The MD DNR OG person is having the same issue w/ white oak. They
have 300 years as 1/2 max age for white oak. There may be a 600
year old white oak in the landscape today. However, nearly 3
decades of work by David Stahle, Ed Cook and other have produced
only a handful of white oak verified to be 400-420 yrs old. Of
course, internal decay is one of our nemeses here.
Long story short, I’d reckon we have a lot to learn about
max ages of eastern species.
Neil
|
| Re:
confirmed ages for eastern species |
dbhg-@comcast.net |
| Dec
13, 2003 09:28 PST |
Neil:
Good information and I couldn't agree with you more about the
need to be reasonable when it comes to using maximum known
species ages to classify old growth. Darn, some of these people
act as though they don't have an ounce of common sense.
As you know, old hemlocks are common in the Berkshires. Many
locations have patches of hemlocks that predate the period of
settlement for the particular area. However, patches may not
contain a single 300-year old hemlock. The age range for the
mature hemlocks in one of the patches can be very broad 100 to
275) and fits well with Lee's descriptions for multi-aged (old
growth) forests.
Since we've been looking, we've only confirmed
a handful of Massachusetts hemlocks over 400 years old. The
oldest actual ring count is 474. With 1 to 2
inches left to center and a 3+ foot coring height, there is no
question that the hemlock is 500 years old, but we've found only
the one.
The determination of species maximums could be
a science unto itself. Broad measures of central tendency and
dispersion are necessary to understand big populations, but a
top-down approach to determining species potential has its
place. The Rucker index applied iteratively and across large
geographical areas gives us a lot better species profile than
can be derived from concentrated data collected at a few sample
plots.
Bob
|
| Re:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
greentreedoctor |
| Mar
02, 2004 14:38 PST |
ENTS:
I just talked to a forester from Ontario. He
said there was some article about limestone escarpment white
cedars near the NE or Great Lakes that had growth as slow as the
bristlecone (smaller diameter, though)??? Does
anyone remember seeing such an article and is this worth
checking out? Or do cypress still rule the
East? I remember reading about a dwarf Siberian tree with 600
years of growth to the inch.
Randy
SC |
| Re:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Lee
E. Frelich |
| Mar
02, 2004 14:50 PST |
Randy:
There are several articles by a research group from Ontario
including D.W.
Larson, P.E. Kelly, from the University of Guelph. The growth
rates of
northern white cedar on rocky terrain are comparable to
bristlecone
pines. It is not clear whether white cedar or cypress will turn
out to be
the oldest trees in the east. Kelly had a 1650 year old white
cedar on one
of his study sites on the Niagara escarpment on the Bruce
Peninsula, Lake
Huron.
Lee
|
| Re:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Lee
Frelich |
| Mar
02, 2004 17:01 PST |
Randy:
As long as we are on the topic of lightning, I think it is one
of the main
causes of tree mortality. A tall object cannot stand in one
place for
several hundred years in the Midwest without getting struck.
Then rot gets
into the wound, and several decades later, the rot catches up
with growth
(i.e. the diameter of the trunk can no longer outpace the
advancing rot),
and the tree falls over.
This may also be the explanation for the ancient white
cedars--they are too
short to attract lightning, and the cliff towering above them is
more
likely to be struck anyway. So, they just live for centuries.
Lee
|
| RE:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
John
Eichholz |
| Mar
02, 2004 17:30 PST |
| Re:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
greentreedoctor |
| Mar
02, 2004 17:30 PST |
ENTS:
Just a few things I pulled off the net to possible prod
discussion on the age limits of Eastern trees and the
reliability of estimating hollow trees.
He adds, however, that old-growth can be found across the
country, even in more densely populated East, which Stahle says
is home to more than 2,000 miles of old-growth woodlands. Among
the areas hosting some of those miles are places like New York's
Hudson Valley, which is home to 500-year-old pines; the Black
River region of North Carolina, which possesses bald cypress
some 1,500-2,000 years old; and the forest-covered mountains of
Massachusetts, which harbor 400-year-old red oaks. American
Forests
bluffs bordering Keystone Reservoir a few miles west of Tulsa,
Oklahoma. Field surveys identified an ancient tree believed to
be the world's oldest known post oak. University teams also
discovered a 500-year-old red cedar on a site believed to
contain the largest concentration of ancient cedars in the
United States.
Based on anecdotal evidence, the Wye Oak was thought to be over
450 years old. The Charter Oak in Connecticut, which was felled
by a storm in 1856, was estimated by some to be perhaps 1,000
years old.
Notice where this tree is growing, in the middle of Congaree
Swamp, South Carolina (photo © L.J. Cushman). This is a
baldcypress tree (Taxodium distichum), currently the oldest
species known in the Southeastern U.S. (about 1,650 years old).
These three northern white-cedar (Thuja occidentalis) trees,
known as The Three Kings, are rooted in the
talus at the base of the Niagara Escarpment (photo © Peter
Kelly). They are 956, 1033 and 1156 years old.
Hemlock is the longest lived of the indigenous tree species.
Some say it can live 600-800 years. There are many hemlocks in
this woodlot over 300 years old.
Bald cypress trees are not true cypresses but belong to the same
plant family as the sequoias, Taxodiaceae. These trees are the
sequoias of the Midwest, with some reaching over 100 feet tall
and from 800 to 1,500 years of age. The oldest and largest tree
in the state is a bald cypress.
The Senator's official age is 3500 years plus or minus a 100
years. One reference states that an
"increment borer" was used by the Department of
Forestry to remove a core sample from the trunk. From this core
the tree's annual growth rings were counted to come to a very
accurate measurement of age. The Senator may have competition
from a bald cypress in Southern Mexico that was reported by a
Missouri timber engineer to be 140 ft (42.7 m) tall and 39 ft
(11.9 m) in diameter (measured 40 ft above the ground) and at
least 4000 years old - at the time believed to be the oldest
living thing on earth. There is also a competitor reported in
Weakley County Tennessee.
The oldest living cedar that we have lives on a cliff face and
it germinated in 952 A.D. (i.e. 1051 years old). This was
determined from a cross-dated tree-ring count back to 1039 A.D.
plus an estimated 87 years lost from the pith area. The oldest
dead white cedar I've found had a tree-ring count of 1,653
years. This is a pith date from the base. Another white cedar
with a ring count of 1,567 years was estimated to be missing 323
rings from its base, thus an estimated age of 1,890 years"
(Kelly and Larson 1997, and P.E. Kelly e-mail 15-Nov-2002).
The oldest known trees east of the Rocky Mountains can be found
on this meandering blackwater stream in the southeastern part of
the state: a stand of 1,700-year-old bald cypress.
We can add N.H.'s 600 to 700 year old black tupelo, 350 year old
cross-timber post oaks of Texas, 650 year old Boone Plantation
live oak.
|
| Re:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
The
Darbyshires |
| Mar
02, 2004 23:46 PST |
There
was an article about the Niagara Escarpment in American
Scientist (not
Scientific American) a few years ago. I think that a picture
from the
article was even on the front cover. The authors wrote about the
old trees
growing there and how some of the cedars had a single live strip
of bark
apparently keeping them alive, similar to some of the
bristlecone pines. I
thought it was an interesting article. They also have a fairly
extensive
web site. You could check out the website for American Scientist
and see if
they have the table of contents for back issues online.
Robyn
|
| RE:
Setting the bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Robert
Leverett |
| Mar
03, 2004 06:52 PST |
Lee, Randy:
The northern white cedar and the bald cypress
seemed locked in
competition for the #1 position. However, Lee, from what you've
described to me the number of Methuselah candidates among the
white
cedars haven't even begun to be touched. By contrast, our
rapacious,
disrespectful society has ravaged the bald cypress stands and
left few
sites and candidates in the millennium club. So, I would guess
that in
sheer numbers, the northern white cedar is champ. However, given
the
fact that Dave Stahle didn't hit the center of the Black River
bald
cypress and cored it well above its base, the tree has to be
over 2,000
years of age.
Randy and others (except Lee, Charlie, Neil, etc.):
A word of caution on putting credence in the
lists others put
together about maximum ages of old trees. Those lists and
sources
usually suffer from the same weaknesses as the big tree lists of
others
and popular articles often have egregious reporting errors.
Bob
|
| Setting
the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Robert
Leverett |
| Mar
03, 2004 09:08 PST |
Randy:
You are right. Keeping the mind open to other
possibilities even if
the sources are not trusted by some of us is sage advice.
Pushing the
envelope is something that we in ENTS regularly do and it is
good for us
to hear your cautions about getting too uppity puppity. After
all we had
our beginnings in fighting the forestry establishment over
methods for
measuring tree dimensions. We were the underdog and at the outset our
chances of success could have been put at little or none when
one
considers that our adversaries were absolutely convinced that
they had
the world market on tree measurements corners and if
improvements were
to be made, they would necessary flow from the forestry
"Skunk Works".
This having been said and your
acknowledgement of my cautions duly
noted, we in ENTS can be properly proud of our base of knowledge
about
maximum tree ages. Drs. David Stahle, Charles Cogbill, Lee
Frelich, and
Robert Van Pelt are all ENTS members. Doctors to be Neil
Pederson, Matt
Therrell, and Bruce Allen are also. Some of the very people
mentioned in
the articles, including Dr. Doug Larson, have been part of our
past old
growth conferences. In our quest for heights and volumes, we
should also
pay homage to those whose knowledge of the tree elders runs
deep.
Bob
|
| Re:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
David
Orwig |
| Mar
03, 2004 10:33 PST |
To
the Forum: one of the best sources of accurate tree ring ages is
the
International Tree ring database. This database contains
literally
thousands of tree-ring chronologies, which means not only are
they aged,
but each individual ring has been measured. This can be accessed
at :
http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/ or
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ftp-treering.html
On a related note since it is of interest to many on this group,
Tony
D'Amato has now confirmed a hemlock age of 488 from Cold River.
We have
found many over 300 as well. This is now the 2nd site with
hemlocks over
470 years as Larry Winship recently aged one at Dunbar Brook to
474 I
believe. Combine these findings with the fantastic tree heights
that Bob
et al. continue to document, it makes the Berkshire Hills one
incredible
place!
Sincerely, DAVE ORWIG
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Robert
Leverett |
| Mar
03, 2004 12:04 PST |
Dave:
Awesome!! Forgive me, my friend, for leaving
your name out of that
list of distinguished scientists with lots of experience in
tree-ring
analysis. You are equally distinguished. My brain was out to
lunch. We
just need to hear more from you, Dave. You have an incredible
cache of
knowledge.
The 488-year old hemlock in Cold River greatly
exceeds the 425-year
old one I dated there years ago. Congratulations to Tony. Cold
River is
one of 4 places that have documented tree ages of over 400 years
for
Tsuga canadensis in Massachusetts. They are: Cold River, Dunbar
Brook,
Little River, and Alander Mountain. If we had a mere 20 years to
Tony's
age to get a projected age at the base, we're over 500 years.
Seems
entirely reasonable.
With respect to Mohawk's tall trees, on March
2nd, John Eichholz
added a 121.7-foot black cherry to Mohawk's list of 120-foot
species. We
now have confirmed 10 species that reach 120 feet. Mohawk has 5
that
reach 130, 2 that reach 140, and 1 that reaches 150. Mohawk has
24
species that reach 100 feet. Not bad for a little state forest
in
crowded Massachusetts that was hardly even noticed, except for
camping,
prior to 1988. We also measured a red oak with a height to
diameter
ratio of 115 to 1 ( 102.9 ft hgt, 2.8 ft CBH). This is the
slenderest
tree we have found over 100 feet tall that has a very high
height to
diameter ratio and it turns out to be a northern red oak. Fancy
that!
Bob
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Will
Blozan |
| Mar
03, 2004 18:01 PST |
Perhaps
you are speaking of MA only but three eastern hemlocks in the
Smokies have been confirmed over 500, two over 530 years. I know
that two
are dead, and the other is presumed dead or well on it's way...
Will
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
John
Eichholz |
| Mar
03, 2004 18:38 PST |
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Neil |
| Mar
04, 2004 04:56 PST |
Dear ENTS,
Seems like lightning struck twice yesterday in terms of maximum
tree age.
Yesterday, Myvonwynn Hopton, a tech in our lab, confirmed a
cucumbertree
[Magnolia acuminata] 349 years old! A second Magnolia from this
stand looks like it will
be very close to 300 years old. Two more are ~200 years old.
BTW, we have 2 tulip-poplars
and a shagbark in that same stand > 300 years old.
The silvics manual says: "This species [cucumber tree]
matures in 100 years and seldom
lives more than 150 years (8)." This one stand in VA
indicates this may not be true.
Keep pushing ENTS. Keep pushing our knowledge of tall,
voluminous and old trees!
Neil
|
| Re:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Colby
Rucker |
|
Mar
04, 2004 11:34 PST |
Bob,
If we apply the silvicultural references in an economically
practical sense,
across the whole range of a species, the difference between the
stated
maximums and the ages attained by exceptional specimens in
optimum
environments narrows considerably.
On the Maryland coastal plain, trees grow very rapidly, but
their lifespans
are severely limited by the effects of high summer temperatures,
droughts,
severe thunderstorms and hurricanes.
Hereabouts, "ancient" trees routinely prove to be much
younger when cut.
I've counted rings on stumps and limbs, and taken periodic
measurements of
lots of trees in my work for nearly fifty years, and find that
few trees
survive past 80-100, when much of a woodland begins to simply
fall down.
I'll list ages for some exceptional specimens, derived by a
variety of
observations and measurements:
white oak - Wye Oak, cbh 31' 10"- 365
tuliptree - Liberty Tree, cbh 26' 11" - 356
black walnut - Rhode River, cbh 21' 6" - 329
white oak - Wilmer Stone Oak, cbh 20' 9.5" - 300
white oak - Belt Woods, cbh ca. 11' - 240
mockernut hickory - Annapolis, cbh ca. 4.5' - 211
southern red oak - Cedar Park, cbh 30' 0" - 200
black oak - Belt Woods - 200
American beech - Cedar Park - 200
sour gum - Chase Creek - 190
chestnut oak - St. Margarets - 160
northern red oak - Chase Creek - 125
white ash - State House - 112
black cherry - Chase Creek - 106
scarlet oak - Chase Creek - 86
Virginia pine - Chase Creek - 80
Most of the trees were dead or decadent. I expect the sour gums
to reach
250, a few northern reds may see 165, chestnut oak 200, and
scarlet oak 120.
More importantly, a list of maximums can be misleading. Maybe
it's better
to consider a sort of "half life" as in radioactivity.
The last ca. 200
year-old black oak in my woods has fallen, and the rest are
perhaps 100.
From a silvicultural standpoint, a few lingering shells don't
reflect the
average lifespan of a species before a significant number of
them start
falling over, dying back, or rotting up the center. On less
stressful
sites, as in the mountains, that stage will be delayed.
So, it's difficult for anyone to state the lifespan of any
species without
going into a lot of detail regarding regional differences,
habitat
influences, and survival percentages. I suppose it's like
people; a few
live past 100, but hard work will break you down by half that.
Anyway, we probably need to consider the silvicultural ages as
working
numbers, not absolute maximums.
Colby
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Will
Blozan |
|
Mar
04, 2004 18:41 PST |
We have an 18' cbh cuke down here in the Smokies that could be
fairly old.
Do you have a 3' corer? I have no doubt whatsoever that
tuliptree will reach
600+. I have cored them to 440 years+ on two adjacent
trees...(less than 32"
dbh).
Will
|
| Re:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
dbhg-@comcast.net |
| Mar
05, 2004 04:12 PST |
Colby:
It is fine by me if silviculturalists state maximum species ages
in terms of regional maximums or working "life spans"
so long as what is being stated is not misleading. The maximum
age of the eastern hemlock is usually placed at 988 years, but
region maximums are between 350 and 500 years and there are, no
doubt local areas where the hemlocks don't reach that. The use
of a single figure is or at least can be highly misleading.
There's no argument from me on that, whether it is reporting of
a working maximum as an absolute maximum or reporting a
statistical anomalie as typical.
Bob
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Dee
& Neil Pederson |
| Mar
06, 2004 19:05 PST |
Bob,
In going over some species in the silvics
manuals it seems that the information is somewhat
uneven. The information for cucumbertree is
limited, but other species, such as white spruce,
the information is pretty good.
Below is max age info for white spruce:
"Maximum individual tree age appears to occur on
stress sites at latitudinal or elevational
treeline rather than on good sites where trees
attain maximum size. A partially rotted 16.5 cm
(6.5 in) tree growing on the Mackenzie River
Delta (above lat. 67° N.) had a 589-year ring
sequence, and trees nearly 1,000 years old occur
above the Arctic Circle (51). On good sites,
trees 100 to 250 years old are common, and the
oldest trees (250 to 300 years) are frequently
found in areas protected from fire, such as
islands, and in relatively wet upland situations
(83,185)."
from:
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_1/picea/glauca.htm
The author seems to have a good handle on how
long white species can live and supports Colby's
half-life idea.
Knowledge of a species is likely related to its
economic and ecological value. 300+ yr old
cucumbertrees is not new information. Hough
and Forbes documented 200-300+ cucumbertree in
the high plateau of PA in 1943. For some reason,
this info did not make it into the silvics manual
or the Textbook of Dendrology.
You can probably guess my disagreement with the
maximum age of white spruce. The claim of nearly
1000 years seems to be a bit of a stretch. Gordon
Jacoby has been studying old white spruce in
along the northern treeline of N.A. since the
late-1970s and he has never documented a white
spruce close to that age. He is a master of
finding the oldest tree in a stand he is
sampling. I believe there has been only one white
spruce found > 500 years old. It was found by
Giddings in the first half of the 20th century.
People have started collecting deadwood from the
northern treeline to extend the length of living
white spruce chronologies. Perhaps there is a
dead spruce that lived close to 1000 years?
Neil
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Dee
& Neil Pederson |
| Mar
06, 2004 19:16 PST |
Will,
I think our longest borers are out of the country. I'll have to
check our equipment room, but we should have a 24" borer in
the lab.
Several of the cucumbertrees in the stand I sampled were hollow,
including a couple that were older looking than the oldest one.
Hollow trees are so frustrating.
Do you still have the tuliptree cores? It'd be neat to see those
samples [wow]! That beats the oldest tulips in the International
Tree-Ring Data Bank by 100 years. You've got some good info in
those
rings!
Neil
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Will
Blozan |
| Mar
07, 2004 08:26 PST |
The cores from both trees are in the Great Smoky Mountains
National Park
Archives under the Sugarlands Visitor Center, as are many other
cores I have
taken. Has anyone been interested or even thought of collecting
cores from
the ancient eastern hemlocks (and Carolinas as well) before they
are wiped
out in the southern Apps? Seems like a potential
dendrochronological
resource going to waste. But then again, hemlock may suck as far
as
dendrochronology goes... I am positive that eastern hemlock will
exceed 600
years, but finding a solid tree that old may be hard. However,
it will most
likely be an understory tree suppressed for centuries, and be
quite small
(less than 80 cm dbh). These trees are usually solid- but tend
to have lots
of "ring shake?" (as I am sure you are well aware!)
Will
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Dee
& Neil Pederson |
| Mar
09, 2004 17:30 PST |
Eastern hemlock has been one of the primary species in the study
of
paleoclimate and forest history in eastern NA. Its longevity,
tolerance of competition and relatively high sensitivity to
climate
make it an ideal species to use for tree-ring analysis. Its
utility
for tree-ring analysis is another reason to lament the loss of
eastern hemlock.
Ed Cook has a network of at least 42 hemlock populations from
the
northern AL to Nova Scotia over to MI. His primary paper on the
species is:
Cook, E. R. and Cole, J. 1991. Predicting the response of
forests in
eastern North America to future climatic change. Climatic Change
19:271-282.
Every few months over the past few years Ed has talked about
updating his sites one last time. He just has no time these days
to
do it.
The oldest intact hemlock he cored is from Tionesta, PA and
dates to
1425. He says those trees were relatively small.
Neil
|
| RE:
Setting the age bar for ancient Eastern trees |
Dale
J. Luthringer |
| Mar
10, 2004 06:06 PST |
Neil,
That is incredible age for hemlock. I didn't realize that some
of the
hemlocks in Tionesta could ever reach that age. I have done
rough ring
counts on downed trees that were sawed off gas lines to 420+.
This
particular tree wasn't all that big, maybe 30"DBH, and the
cut where I
counted was about 15ft from its base. I'd love to know the
section he
was in where he cored them. Ed has given me a new respect for
the
Tionesta Scenic Area.
Dale
|
|