ENTS Maximum Age List  

TOPIC: ENTS Maximum Age List

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 2:28 pm
From: "Edward Frank"


I have been making progress on the ENTS Maximum Age List. I received a list of ages from cores taken as part of the Tsuga Search Project from Jess Riddle. Many of these represent species that were absent on the Eastern Old-List. Scott Wade sent me ages on three trees from the Philadelphia area. Today, I also received a series of three spreadsheets from Josh Kelly representing several years of coring in the NC/TN areas. I have added some of his data to the listing. I want to thank those people who have sent me data, and encourage ENTS members to continue to look for ages for more species, and older ages than are currently documented by cross-dating core samples. There are a few ages being counted currently by Neil Pederson, this information has not been included on the list.


I have opted to include: 1) Any ages fro species not currently on the Eastern old-List
2) Ages that exceed or approach the ages for the species on the Eastern Old-List
3) Ages that represent great age for the species, or exceed 300 years of age.

There still is much work to be done as there are still around 200 species with no age data at all. I may have a few of the state locations wrong on the list in Josh Kelly's data. Josh please check them out to make sure they are right.

Ed Frank

"I am not bound to please thee with my answers."
William Shakespeare

TOPIC: ENTS Maximum Age List

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 19 2008 2:00 am
From: Beth Koebel


I would not mind contributing to this list but I have
never cored a tree before and I don't usually come
across trees that you could count the rings. Maybe if
we have an ENTS meeting closer to the Mississippi
River, say Il, Mo, Kent, Tenn, ARK, Miss, or Louisiana
then maybe someone could show me how to take tree


== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 19 2008 6:34 am
From: "Joseph Zorzin"

Beth, you'll need an increment borer- which are very expensive especially those for large trees. Once you take the core- they're often very difficult to count the rings unless you prepare the core by sanding and polishing.

What would be great would be some kind of portable "cat scan" that can see into the tree and record a perfect cross section without penetrating the tree- as a digital image of high resolution. Actually, a full series of such cross sections would be extremely valuable research.

Another reason that cores are important- other than determining age, is the forestry variable known as "site index"- which I think the ENTS folks do not attempt to measure. Site index is defined as the height of a tree species on that site at age 50. This is an important variable- because future forestry researchers will carefully correlate site index with a long term potential for the site to produce value. This research isn't currently being done because they're instead researching ways to justify massive clearcutting. <G>

Site index is more or less independent of the forest "stocking" (number of trees per acre)- so it should be the same regardless of stand history (other than high grading).

Once we have the long term potential to produce value- this value can be offered to the forest's ownership- as a goal to pursue with high quality forest management. Generally, the forestry "leadership" likes to underestimate the potential for forests to produce value- for 2 reasons- the first is that poor productivity of forestland helps justify the existence of the forestry establishment with its special tax breaks and subsidies which will require that establishment to oversee such programs. Also, such low estimates help the wood industry convince forest owners that their forest isn't producing more than "3-5%" increase in value- then using that false information, the wood industry can convince the owner that it's financially smart to waste the woodlot and put the money into higher yielding investments. For both reasons, the forestry establishment has sold out the forest owners, the forests, and the real forestry profession. (the late Karl Davies wrote a great essay on what he called "the 3-5% scam" which is found on his still existing web site)

Now that's all probably way more than you wanted to know about increment borers- but I thought that the full significance of the borer as a tool isn't always appreciated- and I've had way too much coffee this morning.

PS: once forest owners understand the real potential of great silviculture, you'll see much nicer forests with larger trees, more diversity, more valuable forests for the owners and for society at large thanks to ecosystem services.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 19 2008 7:54 am
From: Beth Koebel


Thank you for all I wanted to know about tree coring
and more.


== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 19 2008 8:42 am
From: "Edward Frank"

The tree coring stuff costs around $220. I bought a 16 inch corer recently,
but actually have not used it yet. The few times I have done a tree core,
it was on trips with Dale Luthringer. Don Bragg or other people out that
way may be able to help you if you want to get into the process. For people
with out coring equipment, the thing to do would be to count rings on stumps
on the occasions when you find them, or to count rings on trees cut where
they cross hiking trails in parks. The ancient cucumber magnolia at Cook
Forest (a cookie is still being processed by Neil's people) was an example
of a tree fallen across a trail and cut by maintenance crews. Dale
recognized it age and got a better slab, but the rings were there to count.
The same is the case for the about 190 year old Am. Basswood sample Carl,
tony, and I collected. We counted the rings on a trail cut fallen log
before collecting a better slab sample. Good luck with your tree aging.


== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 19 2008 7:36 pm
From: Larry

Ed,Joe,Beth, Coring is something I have been interested in trying. I
need to look on my forestry tool site and get a good one. That would
be Awesome if they had something that could look through the tree!
Thanks for the info. Larry

TOPIC: tree ages

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 26 2008 6:59 pm
From: Beth


I have same trees that I counted the rings on. None of these trees
are old by any means.
Celtis occidentalis (hackberry)...28
Fraxinus americana (white ash)...38
Prunus serotina (black cherry)...39
Quercus inbircaria (shingle oak)...26
Quercus palustris (pin oak)...29
Sassafrass albidum (sassafras)...20

All of these trees were on the dam of our pond and since we have to
redig the pond and rebuild the dam we are cutting the trees down for
firewood. The ages of the trees sound about right since we bought the
farm in 1972 and have done nothing to stop them from growing on the
pond dam. Also keep in mind I have never counted rings before until


GPS of  N38 14.036
W89 28.741.


TOPIC: ENTS Maximum Age List

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 30 2008 4:07 pm
From: Michael Davie

I pulled out one of my slabs the other day and started sanding it. It
is about 20 inches in diameter, unfortunately I'm not sure if I cut
this close to ground level or up the trunk, though I think this is one
of the ground level ones. It's from Cashiers, in the Wade Hampton
community. In any case, I've got a preliminary count of 361, but don't
put that on the list yet, I'm going to sand it more and count it a few
more times, hopefully this weekend. I thought I would share, though.
I'm going to pull out a few more, including some of the small ones,
and start sanding.


TOPIC: Ed, I have a ring count for you.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:13 am
From: pabigtrees


Today I was able to sand and ring count a section of american beech
that came from a fallen tree here on the property. It was 35"dbh when
it was standing at it's widest point, the section came from about 6'
up, as it was hollow below there. The tree failed due to root rot,
which more than likely started in 1961 when the driveway it is next to
was "improved" with curbs and asphalt. The final ring count came to
147 with about a half inch of rot in the center. My best guess would
be 151 to 160 at the base. Very cool grain and heart wood in the
tree. Sorry to see it go.


Shingle Oak Ring Count