Tuliptrees/  Robinson   Fores-@aol.com   Feb 14, 2007 13:37 PST  Ray: I do not know a lot about the issues with red maple but I think that the origin of the Robinson poplar could be far more complex than fires or grazing. Because yellow poplar tends to be so straight grained and easy to work it was always favored as a construction material for log cabins in the Appalachians. I think that early New England settlers could have encountered patches of it in the "Pioneer Valley" generally at lower elevations but yellow poplar could have readily been cut to oblivion. Because of the late spring flowering of yellow poplar I could imagine that there have been a great number of years when the seed crop was lost to a late frost and from what I read about late 1600's and early 1700's history of the Connecticut valley it appears that there were a bunch of really cold years about the time of settlement. If yellow poplar was rare to begin with, the species could have been cut to oblivion before 1750 and its initial presence could have been lost to history.    If I ever get up that way with some time to spare it would be interesting to see the area and get my own impression for where the poplar came from. One thing for certain....yellow poplar is extremely shade intolerant and it will not readily regenerate in anything less that almost full sunlight....or at least in substantial gaps. Silviculturally, if I had a small stand of yellow poplar that I wanted to regenerate and the stand had a heavy red maple component in the understory and midstratum as competition, I would whack the maple very hard and try to free up the crown of every vigorous poplar tree as much as possible. While I was practicing forestry in Massachusetts white pine was a large part of my daily bread and butter. Now, in West Virginia 20 years later, the same can pretty much be said for my relationship with yellow poplar. Finally, has anyone ever noticed exactly when the Robinson yellow poplar trees flower? Russ Re: Withdraw from Robinson   Fores-@aol.com   Feb 14, 2007 06:04 PST  Ray: FYI.... Yellow poplar is an extremely common species in WV and the southern Appalachians. I have not read or observed any situation where fire helped yellow poplar germinate...it usually kills the stuff pretty dead. For all of this region YP is as close to a hardwood version of eastern white pine as I could imagine finding...it is often a pioneer in old agricultural land and pastures, it can grow in extremely thick and a fire in a young stand will destroy it. If the ground is the least bit dry any decent ground fire will burn up any seed in the duff layer I think that wind dispersal of seed is the #1 way YP gets around. If you guys need any info on silviculture of yellow poplar just holler. About 10 years ago I helped arrange a program just devoted to YP and I think I have a lot of the information distributed at the session still in my possession. Russ Richardson RE: Withdraw from Robinson   Ray Weber   Feb 14, 2007 09:27 PST  I'd appreciate that. Perhaps they got that silvicultural info from the Forest Service? The localities that they show up in at Robinson seem to point to wind/rain or a combination of those as a POSSIBLE catalyst. The oak leave dominated soils tend to be rather acidic in that area, but if the topsoil is washed off, there is some great mineralized soil underneath in the area. That led to the theory about flood/wind being the possible catalyst. Bob and Gary are going to core some and the age will tell a lot about that possibility. This is strictly scientific information we are seeking. We did ask about the red maple issue some time back, and a lot of information came back. If we are wrong, we are wrong. Anything you can feed back from that work would be appreciated. Thanks much Russ.. Ray Re: Withdraw from Robinson   rayof-@ndws.com   Feb 14, 2007 14:15 PST  I suspect you are right about complex. We are going to note this year when they flower. The area where they are had a heavy native American population. This stand that is there now appears to be 70 yrs old or so. We have checked other stands to the west however, that were on a 1938 population map of the species, and they regenerated there as well. They are all in ravines or valleys that are not flood plain areas. The only red maple I noted in one area was under the canopy and virtually dead from the tulips taking over the canopy. By the age, at least until we get coring, it appears to be possible that one of the significant floods may have created a large runoff disturbance in these ravines that took off the acidy oak topsoil, and regenerated them. Many are all around the same age, but there are scattered older ones around. The old trees in the stands noted in the 1938 map don't seem to be there. All the stands that I have seen were ravines that would be subject to runoff damage during a flood or major rain. Gary I believe found one stand however that took hold in a cleared stand someplace, but it younger. The flood/wind theory is just that, but coring might pin a date down of a major event like that. We have some regenerating saplings in one Robinson stand that can be noted. They have gaps overhead. However, they are all marked for cut, with a logging road going through the ravine, within 3 ft of a wetland. They are about 2 inch diameter. We saw some others in a few spots as well. We are going to inventory them this year. Ray RE: Withdraw from Robinson   Willard Fell   Feb 15, 2007 06:56 PST  I have read with interest what has been written concerning Yellow Poplar in Mass and WV. It amazes me that Yellow Poplar is so wide ranging and how it adapts in different ways in different parts of its range. In the southern Apps it is a tree of upland coves, while down here in SE GA and NE FLA it is restricted to a very narrow habitat, but still quite common in that niche well down into the peninsula and yet it still displays many of the characteristics described by Russ up in WV. Down here it is restricted to spring heads as opposed to creek or river bottoms. So much so that these heads are commonly called poplar heads in these parts. In some areas where the sand is deeper, there tends to be a peat build up because of greater groundwater seepage and as they become more anaerobic and acidic, the bay trees begin to replace the poplar and these areas are referred to as bay heads or simply bays. Over the years poplar has often been high graded and left the tolerant red maples to take over and dominate the sites. But even if there is a single poplar within several hundred feet, you can clear-cut and the poplar will quickly regenerate and reclaim the site. The seed remains viable in the leaf litter for years awaiting a sunny opening. Of course down here freezes and snow are not a problem, but fire quickly claims those poplars spreading beyond the heads.   Home