Adirondack Survey    Howard Stoner
   Oct 14, 2003 05:43 PDT 

Here is the latest data from up north.

Friday Oct. 10 Marcy Swamp toward Panther Gorge. Reported by Fred Breglia as being old growth forest.

White Pine in swamp 8.9' cbh 106.0'   L/C-RPM (Laser/Clinometer-Rucker
Pole Method)
Northern White Cedar ring count of 200 rings.
Sugar Maple 6.9' cbh 118' L/C
Sugar Maple 7.1' cbh 90' L/C
Yellow Birch 4.8' cbh 67.8' L/C
Sugar Maple 8.2' cbh 86.8' L/C
Hemlock 7.5'cbh 82.6' L/C-RPM
Hemlock 7.7' cbh 81.5' L/C-RPM
Yellow Birch in swamp 9.5'cbh 78.0' L/C-RPM
Northern White Cedar in swamp 6.3' cbh 62' L/C-RPM
Ring counts on sugar maple over 200 rings from trail clearing cuts.

Saturday Oct 11Cranberry Lake(Wanakena south shore)
White Pine 14.2' cbh 139.0' L/C-RPM
Yellow Birch 8.4' cbh 87.7' L/C-RPM
White Pine 82' L/C

Sunday Oct. 12 Paul Smith College Elders Grove
WP 12.4' cbh 129.1' L/C-RPM
WP 11.7' cbh 151.4' L/C-RPM
WP 13.1' cbh 158.3' L/C
WP 13.8' cbh 154.0' L/C
WP 15.3' cbh 154.7' L/C-RPM
WP 11.8' cbh 148.2' L/C-RPM
WP 12.2' cbh 132.2' L/C-RPM
WP 10.6' cbh 131.0' L/C
WP 11.0' cbh 113' L/C-RPM
WP 12.3' cbh 142' L/C
WP 13.0' cbh 136.8' L/C-RPM
WP 9.9' cbh 150.3' Laser only
WP 10.5' cbh 150.0' Laser only
WP 8.8' cbh 146.8' Laser only
WP 11.9 cbh 148.3' Laser only

Monday Oct. 13 Peavine Swamp(between Cranberry Lake and Wanakena)
Yellow Birch 10.7' cbh 68.7' L/C-RPM

RE: Adirondack Survey    Robert Leverett
   Oct 14, 2003 06:00 PDT 


   Soooopa! Good show. The 118-foot sugar maple is an Adirondack record
for that species and of course, you own the New York tall tree record
with that 158.3-footer. We're cookin with gas.

   Howard, would you mind creating a spreadsheet for me an include the
laser, clinometer, and pole readings for each tree. I'd love to include
them in the Howard Stoner Section of my big tree Access database. Little
by little, we'll develop the 150 Club Northeast entries.

   With these entries, New York starts to become a serious member of the
150 Club. In terms of all species, it has 3 entries: white pine,
tuliptree, and sycamore. Pennsylvania currently has two entries, and
Mass and New Hampshire each have one.

    Howard, between us we probably have enough entries to compute a
Rucker Index for the Daks.

Re: Adirondack Survey    Thomas Diggins
   Oct 14, 2003 06:08 PDT 


Wow! Nice tally of pines; tallest tree in NYS so far. That 118' sugar maple
is also impressive. That may be the most northerly truly tall sugar maple. I
have not seen any reports of 100+ footers that far north (are there any in
the midwest's North Woods?).

RE: Adirondack Survey    Robert Leverett
   Oct 14, 2003 07:23 PDT 


   Some questions about the Paul Smith College Elders Grove. How many
acres are involved? What percentage have you covered? Any projection on
how many 150-footers there might be? Has Michael Kudish seen any other
groves in the Daks that are comparable?

   Taken as a whole, I suspect that the Daks harbor the greatest number
of 150-foot pines in the Northeast. I suspect there are over 100 of them
scattered over the 6,000,000 acre park. Five Ponds is bound to have a
bunch, probably most of them. However, I have heard of several private
groves that have huge white pines. Unfortunately, I haven't succeeded in
getting access to any of them.

Re: Adirondack Survey    Howard Stoner
   Oct 14, 2003 07:50 PDT 

I am a poor judge of area but would guess 7-10 acres. There are other white pine in the area but these 15 seem to be the tallest. There could be as many as 15 more in the 110-130 foot range. I would like to eventually get a comprehensive survey of all of the tallest in this relatively small stand. Perhaps monitor them over several years like you are doing at MTSF.  I will ask Michael Kudish these questions and get back to you.

A word about Five Ponds is that a lot of the tallest WP where blown down in the '95 hurricane, so it will be interesting to get in there and actually see.  What some people see as "really" tall trees don't measure up all they are talked up! I was hoping to go look at one of these sites, Nicks Pond, this past weekend but was discouraged by locals who said the 1.5 - 2.0 mile hike to the esker would be impossible due to the blow down and that all the big ones are on the ground. Some day I will have to try going in so that I see for myself. Otherwise there will always be that nagging and wondering if there is something we have missed.


RE: Adirondack Survey    Robert Leverett
   Oct 14, 2003 09:48 PDT 


Thanks for the input. It sounds like the Elders Grove is in good
hands. We look forward to more reports. I would agree that people's
perceptions about what is tall and what isn't is very flawed. It usually
has more to do with how tree shape, symmetry, or asymmetry of a
particular type, impacts them. We've often discussed that topic on ENTS.
Search images have to be developed species by species. Without them,
trees that are most visible usually look the tallest. Most people don't
spot the tallest pines in Mohawk, which as you know are part of groves
where the individual trees are competing for the limited horizontal

   Over the past couple of years I've developed a keen cottonwood
consciousness. I can spot hundred-footers with surprising accuracy as my
friends will attest. Have not developed similar sensitivity to say black

   In thinking about 150s in Five Ponds, I hadn't factored in the amount
of that area that was hit by the big wind.

Re: Adirondack Survey    Howard Stoner
   Oct 14, 2003 10:24 PDT 
I call it the "knee" tree. It is a single stem but has an unusuall
growth pattern that extends
10-12 feet up the one side of the tree.
None-the-less, it is a big tree!

NR, Cook Forest Env. Ed. wrote:


Was that a single stem 15.3 x 154.7 white pine?! If so, it is truely one massive white pine.

RE: Adirondack Survey    Will Blozan
   Oct 14, 2003 13:28 PDT 

FAT PINES! Holy moly, some whoppers... Is the 15'3" pine a single stem?
Could this tree be an ENTS volume record?

What does "laser only" mean?


Re: Adirondack Survey    Howard Stoner
   Oct 15, 2003 07:06 PDT 

Volume record I have no clue.
"Laser Only" means a laser reading straight up into the tree, attempting
to hit a high point.
No trig involved.
Re: Adirondack Survey    Howard Stoner
   Oct 15, 2003 07:19 PDT 
I was wondering at one point if that might be the case.
It would be good to get someone more experienced than I to look at it.
There don't appear to be any "seams" or "scares", that to me, would suggest
a split stem. Next time I am up there I will see if Michael Kudish or Fred
Breglia, experts in such matters, can take a look.

Dale J. Luthringer wrote:


Do you think it may be an old double that's long since healed over?

Howard's Adirondack Survey and WP Potential   Robert Leverett
  Oct 15, 2003 10:56 PDT 


   Counting the 6 pines you measured in the Elders Grove, the one
between 7th and 8th Lake in the Cathedral Pines that John Knuerr and I
measured several years ago, and the two hardwoods in Zoar Valley, our
New York count of 150-footers stands at 9. However, there must be many
more both white pines and tuliptrees in New York that reach the 150-foot
threshold. If tiny Massachusetts has 43 150-footers (all white pines),
then New York must have anywhere from 3 to 6 times that number, if not

   Just dealing with white pines, where we find places with very
favorable growing conditions that have pines between 150 to 200 years
old, courtesy of the genetics of the species, we have a decent
probability of getting at least some trees that reach into the 150 to
160-foot height range. Above that, though, the numbers plummet. At
least, that's what the data we have now seem to be telling us.

    I'm hopeful of eventually finding some 150s in Vermont. The
Connecticut River corridor should provide lots of good hunting
territory. Then there is the stand that Russ told us about. Actually,
there are many possibilities in Vermont - except for places with junk
for forests like the highly touted Northeast Kingdom.

   I would imagine that we will eventually catalog at least 100 white
pines in New England that have made it to the 150-foot threshold. I'm
unsure what either Lee or Charlie will be able to do with those numbers
in a big picture context, but I think 100 is where we're headed for New
England. Considering the number of 100+ year old white pines we have in
New England, a club with a membership of just 100 is pretty exclusive.

Re: Howard's Adirondack Survey and WP Potential   Howard Stoner
  Oct 16, 2003 04:39 PDT 

The surprise for me at Elders Grove was the number of 150-footers. When we
did the survey in March I got 157', 146', 139', 150', 143', 126'. It
was more a random
selection. This time I attempted to measure all of the tallest trees
and kept them in order
so I can go back and match up the re-measurements.

What are your thoughts on attempting to get permission to tag the trees
and monitor
their growth? Michael Kudish mentioned to me that at one time he had
the trees numbered
but I don't think he had tagged them. Perhaps I could talk with him
about the idea.

The day I did the survey I was running out of time and did the "laser
only" on the last
several trees. A couple of those could well be 150-footers remeasured
with trig.

The other thing to keep in mind is that all my data is based on using my
range finder
calibration table. I will get the spreadsheet of raw data to you as
soon as I can get to it.
RE: Howard's Adirondack Survey and WP Potential   Robert Leverett
  Oct 16, 2003 07:25 PDT 


It would be very useful for us to be able to tag and monitor the
Elders Grove trees since they are older. Maybe in the spring, some of us
can come up and give you a hand. What is the elevation and latitude of
the grove?