09, 2004 17:49 PDT
Today I measured a Norway spruce
in MTSF to 127.1 feet and a CBH of only 4.2 feet. The 127-footer
is a new height champion for MA and at this point the Northeast.
think Will has a slightly taller one in Biltmore, I think. At
this point, we've measured at least 4 Norways in MTSF to over
13, 2004 21:28 PDT
Nice pole of a Norway Spruce!
I've got one in the Irvine plantation at Anders Run Natural Area to 10.2ft CBH x 131.9ft high though.
The only place I've found Norway spruce in the 120ft class or
at Anders Run. No other site I've seen in PA even comes close
know what the eastern side of the state can support). Maybe
in southeastern PA there might be a topper. Most Norway
sites here seem to be started in the CCC era (1930's). I suspect
one was planted somewhere in the late 1800's to early 1900's.
sure on that though. Does anyone know when the first Norway
started to be seriously transplanted to the U.S.?
It's also growing in an old depositional floodplain, so that
has a lot to do with it too.
14, 2004 06:25 PDT
Good question. I think that I've heard that
the species was
introduced in the late 1800s. The Mohawk trees are mid-1930s
trees. So they are just now turning 70 years old.
I often see larger, i.e. thicker Norway
spruces as loners in many
places, but they seem to top out at between 85 to 105 feet.
typically 6 to 9 feet. For the height ceiling, the exception to
isolated spruces is a tree in South Egremont, MA. It is now
around 124.5 feet. Mohawk has 3 above that.
Northampton, MA and environs has a wealth of
tall, mature trees. I
intend to put some serious effort into locating possible new
of several flood plain species. Northampton is loaded with
oaks. There are isolated tuliptrees there plus those on a
terrace of the
Manhan River where the state champ grows.
When you get here for the summit, we'll have a
chance to see a few of
the Northampton trees, plus much, much more.
What I have never understood is why the Norway
spruce has so much
trouble reproducing naturally in New England and elsewhere in
Northeast. Does anyone have the answer to this riddle?
14, 2004 07:15 PDT
I have no reply to the riddle, but was surprised to measure a
Spruce to 116'+ across the street from my father's house in
Falls. There are quite a few NS yard trees in town. Now I am
about the height of the various patches of them I see in my
14, 2004 09:35 PDT
Indeed, it would be an interesting exercise
for us to pursue this
species for a while and just see what kinds of patterns emerge.
is that overall New England is favorable Norway spruce habitat.
then, so is New York, and evidently, parts of PA and even North
Carolina. I have no idea how well it does in say Michigan - what
regional patterns might emerge. Since it didn't evolve over
here, and I
have no idea how broad or restrictive the seed sources were and
doubt that our measurements would have the same meaning as those
collect for the white pine. Still, it would be interesting to
growth of the Norway spruce to our native conifers.
I think most foresters see it as a
fast-growing conifer, but how
fast, I don't know. Russ, what is your experience with Norway
West Virginia as compared to Massachusetts? I know that
run-away growth in WV as compared to MA. But Norway spruce?
14, 2004 16:45 PDT
Having witnessed repeatedly the ability of Norway spruce to
and seed I have shared your wonderment as to why it rarely
appears to expand in
range beyond areas where it has been planted.
Since becoming more aware of invasive organisms and how they
established, reproduce and spread, I would question whether
there could be some soil
microbe in it's native terrain that has a long term link to seed
or some related genetic aspect of Norway spruce survival. It is
look increasingly possible that the presence of certain
in the soil may be necessary to complete germination and
development for some plants, big and little.
The absence of microbial relationships and diseases that keep
some plants from getting out of control in their native habitats
is a major
factor in why invasives can spread so fast. It is amazing how
organism can spread with no competition and nothing to kill it
but old age.
BTW....my most favorite spot in MTSF is to be in the middle of
the red pine
plantation (where the trees look as though they were planted by
the CCC with a
transit to be on center as you walk through the columns of
trees) in a
driving snow. I know you have to be there during a heavy snow to
the affect but it is really worth the spontaneous effort during
winter snow. Otherwise, it makes a great snowshoe walk.
14, 2004 18:58 PDT
Norway spruce was once thought to be reproducing in the Smokies
by small trees in old Champion Paper plantations. However, I
small trees (10-15' tall or less) and they appeared to me to be
trees, and I aged one that confirmed it to be quite old and
seedling that did not do so well when planted. Michael Davie may
about this as I think he was involved in the girdling of the
stand so they
would not cross with red spruce.
What I have seen in Asheville, NC is that Norway spruce is a
very tall tree,
but does not get very large at all. Compared to white pine, a
put on only 1/4 to 1/2 the volume of a white pine and be nearly
tall (~120') after 100 years (our oldest "groves"). I
know of one tree
planted in 1865 that is around 11' in girth and 92' tall. It has
a bit of
volume to it, but not nearly as much as a 140 year old white
as an arborist working on them, what they lack in bulk they make
up for in
weight! I have often thought that the green limb weight of an
Norway spruce would outweigh the trunk.